my wife refused to go to the vatican after the first few times. it's got beautiful treasures in there, but it's a great fortress is great treasures inside, and everywhere, paintings of the donation of con stan tine, the mystical giving of worldly power to the pope, painting on chairs of the bishop peter, which he never was, coats of arms of all of the noble popes who took over in the renaissance, and she said, you know, what could be more against the gospel of jesus than this earthly trumpeting of power and pride? it's not going to go away, but as i say, we really should start treating it with the disrespect it deserves. [laughter] >> is it possible for a church or religion to have structure with hierarchy, implied leadership? is it possible to have that without coming into a toal tearianism, and if so, is it possible to do that, and what would be the best structure? >> yeah. is it possible for a church not to have a high ark yal structure? no, they always have to have it. what's bad is that the priest has this exclusive power over the sackmental